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January 25, 2006

Comments

Joe

Wow… Now that can really get one thinking…I just want to say that I really enjoyed this post, I can’t tell you how many times I read over it…In short, here’s what it made me think about…If only Thoreau were alive to completely put my words to shame…Here are two seemingly contradictory statements which both provide great insight.It’s as if no one knows the true meaning of reality or even spirituality. I guess that just proves the old adage that the meaning of life is different for everyone. That reality in some way shapes us to believe certain things above others or the fact that reality can lead to imaginative fantasy, or at least that’s what I see Thoreau saying. You can let reality bring you down, or you can let it raise you up as one starts to see the fantastic detail involved in the creation of ourselves, our planet and everything that we are and know. Warren sounds as if he is trying to make strong argument that ignorance is truly bliss. I use to say it was, until I started to really wanting to learn about things that I found great interest in. To say to live in a constant daze, or to believe, because I don’t know of something, it’s not reality, is just a copout. To say something that you are unaware of doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist; it will still affect you in one way or another. We are all tied together, maybe just by a thread, but all actions of everyone else in someway will inevitably impact your life. And to me, that’s reality, and that’s what I find so fascinating and poetic. I think Thoreau might be able to teach Warren something about life, but maybe that’s just me, trying to look at the brighter side of reality.On a side note…difficult has a good ring to it doesn’t it…you know, instead of hard?Just an observation…My reality is that I have a despicable mind, no offense intended.

Richard Carpenter

First off, I regret that I was not clearer about Warren. The quotes that I used were from one of his characters at a certain point in the story. That character later learns (and this is what you were talking about at the end of your comment) that everything is connected and there are choices and consequences. He calls it, "The Great Web of Things." I believe that everyone who cares about anything should read Warren's "All the Kings Men." It is a book that keeps teaching me and opening my eyes to things that I want to see, and somethings that I have been scared to look at.Second of all, your comment about life's meaning being different for everyone...As I grow up a little and experience more and more of life, I start to see this. Yet as I let go of my desire to see all of mankind united under MY idea of what life is all about, I also begin to hold a little tighter to whatever notion I have about a Universal. After all, that is what all this reading is really about: Truth (please note that capitol T). Furthermore, when you say that our personal reality informs us, or shapes us to believe certain things, I totally agree. But I think that Thoreau wants us to get beyond that. He wants us to see another level of reality that is spiritual and not merely personal. Kind of like Plato's forms. Anyway, i think it's about time that someone on this blog brought up Plato's image of the cave. Thoreau is talking about this throughout Walden (at least as far as I have read anyway) so we should take a look at it.

s.o

Richard - I think you are the guy to bring up the cave image stuff. Bring that on, teach us!!Joe - I get where you're coming from with the "difficult" word suggestion; but, that sounds too erudite for the intent of this phrase, I think. "Take it hard" is simple and purposeful to me. I'll have to ignore any despicable ring attached to it!As to the post, I too think this is great stuff to think about. Not to toot my own horn (okay, there is your despicable ring), but I think the quote I brought up back in the "*bright songs" post comes to bear here. "Be it life or death, we crave only reality."I have thought long and difficult (note: word substitution) on that phrase. At first I thought Thoreau was wrong. We DON'T crave reality, look at everything we surround ourselves with to distract us from reality. We don't want to get to know ourselves or others, we want to stay on the surface of things and believe the best of ourselves and our actions. We want only happy things, happy thoughts, and we'll block everything else out! We don't want reality. You can't see that want in our lives. ...But, then I think you're right in saying that Thoreau is going deeper. He knows, like we do, that we pursue the lust and lies so easily accessible. But I think that Thoreau has more faith in all of us. He looks even beyond our surface desires and evaluates the soul of man and THERE discovers a desire for "only reality." And, it's not a mere itch - it is a deep craving! I think that adds to the mystery of it being so deep-rooted, sometimes difficult to acknowledge, but perhaps one of the strongest elements of our being as well.You're right, he usually hints that the reality is beautiful and moving and fanciful, but he is also clear that it may be gruesome and ugly, but still worth pursuing - i.e., the "be it life or death" wording. Even if it is death, we crave that reality, that truth. Hey - I think Jesus spoke like this. Jesus, many times, depicted the reality of those who hold on to faith and goodness and compassion as one of suffering and pain. Pardon the bible study session here, but Mark 8 is a great gospel account of Jesus relating to the disciples. He says- "Deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow me." The context of this is right after Peter and the Apostles acknowledged that Jesus is the Christ and then Peter blundered by telling Jesus that He ought not go to the cross and suffer and die. Jesus tells Peter, "You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men ... What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul?"I think Jesus is speaking of Reality. These "things of God" are reality, the "things of men" are those mere distractions; in this case, distractions from sufferage and death. You "gain the world" but find it false in forfeiting soul. This makes sense because God would be a supreme being, seeing true reality, the summum bonum, when mortals cannot. God's "things" are real. Be it life or death, we do crave those "things" in the gut of us. That glorious God-gut we've all got!So, I agree. Thoreau is being very spiritual in this "Where I lived" Chapter of Walden. Would we expect anything less of that title??? Always moving and revealing -Where I Lived and What I Lived for.

Brian Rhea

Good stuff.The Meaning of Life thing (can it really be called something as simple as a thing?) continues to run laps around me. The little building in my philosophy that Meaning lives in has been destroyed, rebuilt and destroyed again dozens of times over.Maybe it's possible that we would phrase or describe the Meaning of our own lives differently, but all would rest comfortably under the same umbrella of True Purpose. Maybe that's the Meaning of Life: to discover a True Purpose (enough with the melodramatic caps already) and truly live it.I find that I'm gathering up mantras as I rebuild that little home I mentioned earlier."What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul?""I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived.""So the question is not whether we will be extremists, but what kind of extremists we will be. Will we be extremists for hate or for love?"

Joe

I’d just like to say that these comments are great, and it really got me to thinking once again, although I didn’t totally understand everything that was said. I also appreciate the fact that you can acknowledge a humbled mans ramblings by commenting on them in such a gracious nature. These comments make this post that much more enjoyable, I hope to read even more in the future.

s.o

thanks Joe.We're glad you're here!-s.o

Trish

Hello, I am Richard's sister and he invited me to read your blog and maybe even comment so I think I will try.Do you realize what the things of God are? Here is the quote from Mark: "You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men ... " The things of God are first of all foolishness to men right? That's what Solomon and David tell us over and over. And what is most foolish to the modern mind? Suffering. Suffering is an overwhelming idea to me. I am almost shy to tell what I think it is. It holds such power and truth and yes deep deep reality. I think Warren's character only realized the "great web of things", the true reality, after he had suffered great loss of love and dreams and hopes. Maybe I can be quicker. Let me just give you some words that define suffering for me:Loneliness, leading to a yearning for someone out there, for God.Pain, an empty pit where God seems nonexistant, which I have only skimmed. The saints can lead us thought it. Suffering is the longest darkest night that still dawns into a new day. For somewhere at the heart of all suffering is hope which leads to life which is why suffering equals reatlity.I think I need to get more concrete.Suffering can be something as small as saying no to just one thing that I want or even just delaying the gratification of a desire. Or it can be realizing that you may never live your sweetest dream. The pain jars us from our sleep, our self hipnosis. It leads us to reality. The things that we surround ourselves with are certainly sweet distractions but as I have read you all say over and over they are not real. Not the way we want life to be.Yes we want the things of God but do we know what we are asking for?

bible audio

Taking it Hard (Where I Lived, and What I Lived for) wah! what a quote i just loved this quote it is really guuuudddd.....:)

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